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	<title>Comments on: Why Are There So Few Female Programmers?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://clararaubertas.net/blog/why-are-there-so-few-female-programmers/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://clararaubertas.net/blog/why-are-there-so-few-female-programmers/</link>
	<description>Miscellaneous thoughts from a Cantabridgian web developer.</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 18 May 2012 19:49:56 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Keegan Wade</title>
		<link>http://clararaubertas.net/blog/why-are-there-so-few-female-programmers/#comment-1399</link>
		<dc:creator>Keegan Wade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Feb 2010 05:47:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clararaubertas.net/blog/?p=167#comment-1399</guid>
		<description>Carla,
 
Thank you for informing me of those discrepancies – I should done more investigating before posting. I edited my blog post and cited your help.
 
I agree with some of Brizandine’s detractors in that she overextended herself throughout her book. Indeed, I included a blurb at the end of my blog post to warn against taking her conclusions too seriously.
 
I’m not sure the entire book is useless, however. At the least Brizandine’s case studies suggest a linkage between estrogen and an emphasis towards relationships, interaction, and emotion. If such traits are not well suited to computer programming (vs. other job types), then that is interesting.
  
Keegan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Carla,</p>
<p>Thank you for informing me of those discrepancies – I should done more investigating before posting. I edited my blog post and cited your help.</p>
<p>I agree with some of Brizandine’s detractors in that she overextended herself throughout her book. Indeed, I included a blurb at the end of my blog post to warn against taking her conclusions too seriously.</p>
<p>I’m not sure the entire book is useless, however. At the least Brizandine’s case studies suggest a linkage between estrogen and an emphasis towards relationships, interaction, and emotion. If such traits are not well suited to computer programming (vs. other job types), then that is interesting.</p>
<p>Keegan</p>
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		<title>By: Clara</title>
		<link>http://clararaubertas.net/blog/why-are-there-so-few-female-programmers/#comment-1397</link>
		<dc:creator>Clara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:50:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clararaubertas.net/blog/?p=167#comment-1397</guid>
		<description>Keegan -- LOL! That book has quite the reputation for inaccuracy and non-existent research in scientific circles. The statistic about how many words women &#038; men say every day, for example, is just MADE UP: http://people.ischool.berkeley.edu/~nunberg/beckies.html, http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004370.html, http://www.inklingmagazine.com/articles/book-club-the-female-brain-by-louann-brizendine/

But even if this were true, in order for the explanation you posit to be plausible, we'd have to see statistically significant evidence that women choose careers with more social interaction and men choose careers with less, across the board -- you'd see more men in relatively solitary occupations, like humanities grad school, and more women in more talkative occupations, like elected politician. What you're doing is using "technical field" as a proxy for "doesn't involve much social interaction", which seems like questionable methodology.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Keegan &#8212; LOL! That book has quite the reputation for inaccuracy and non-existent research in scientific circles. The statistic about how many words women &#038; men say every day, for example, is just MADE UP: <a href="http://people.ischool.berkeley.edu/~nunberg/beckies.html" rel="nofollow">http://people.ischool.berkeley.edu/~nunberg/beckies.html</a>, <a href="http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004370.html" rel="nofollow">http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004370.html</a>, <a href="http://www.inklingmagazine.com/articles/book-club-the-female-brain-by-louann-brizendine/" rel="nofollow">http://www.inklingmagazine.com/articles/book-club-the-female-brain-by-louann-brizendine/</a></p>
<p>But even if this were true, in order for the explanation you posit to be plausible, we&#8217;d have to see statistically significant evidence that women choose careers with more social interaction and men choose careers with less, across the board &#8212; you&#8217;d see more men in relatively solitary occupations, like humanities grad school, and more women in more talkative occupations, like elected politician. What you&#8217;re doing is using &#8220;technical field&#8221; as a proxy for &#8220;doesn&#8217;t involve much social interaction&#8221;, which seems like questionable methodology.</p>
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		<title>By: Keegan Wade</title>
		<link>http://clararaubertas.net/blog/why-are-there-so-few-female-programmers/#comment-1396</link>
		<dc:creator>Keegan Wade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Feb 2010 13:10:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clararaubertas.net/blog/?p=167#comment-1396</guid>
		<description>I recently read a book by Louann Bezandine, a neuroscientist, who suggests that hormonal factors play a significant role in why females tend to stay away from careers such as programming. Check out my blog post: http://www.keeganwadehomepage.com/technicalpsychology/why-so-few-female-programmers-</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I recently read a book by Louann Bezandine, a neuroscientist, who suggests that hormonal factors play a significant role in why females tend to stay away from careers such as programming. Check out my blog post: <a href="http://www.keeganwadehomepage.com/technicalpsychology/why-so-few-female-programmers-" rel="nofollow">http://www.keeganwadehomepage.com/technicalpsychology/why-so-few-female-programmers-</a></p>
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		<title>By: Clara</title>
		<link>http://clararaubertas.net/blog/why-are-there-so-few-female-programmers/#comment-1221</link>
		<dc:creator>Clara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 19:33:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clararaubertas.net/blog/?p=167#comment-1221</guid>
		<description>Rhonda &#8212; thanks for sharing your post!

I'm not sure you totally got what I was saying about stereotype threat and implicit bias, though. It's pretty insidious and affects people on a subconscious level. You say "if programming is a field that you really like, you're not going to let some alpha male spook you"; this may be true for confident women who have had the opportunity to get some programming experience, but the thing about implicit bias is that it affects people long before they have the chance to even get enough experience to decide whether they like something. So there are probably lots of women out there who would be really into programming if they'd tried it out, but never even thought about it because of these subconscious effects.

You also say you're not a feminist &#8212; but you sound like one! &lt;a href="http://tomatonation.com/?p=677" rel="nofollow"&gt;Have you read this essay?&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rhonda &mdash; thanks for sharing your post!</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure you totally got what I was saying about stereotype threat and implicit bias, though. It&#8217;s pretty insidious and affects people on a subconscious level. You say &#8220;if programming is a field that you really like, you&#8217;re not going to let some alpha male spook you&#8221;; this may be true for confident women who have had the opportunity to get some programming experience, but the thing about implicit bias is that it affects people long before they have the chance to even get enough experience to decide whether they like something. So there are probably lots of women out there who would be really into programming if they&#8217;d tried it out, but never even thought about it because of these subconscious effects.</p>
<p>You also say you&#8217;re not a feminist &mdash; but you sound like one! <a href="http://tomatonation.com/?p=677" rel="nofollow">Have you read this essay?</a></p>
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		<title>By: Rhonda B</title>
		<link>http://clararaubertas.net/blog/why-are-there-so-few-female-programmers/#comment-1211</link>
		<dc:creator>Rhonda B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 01:34:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clararaubertas.net/blog/?p=167#comment-1211</guid>
		<description>Hey there Clara. In response to the articles written by you and Cassie, I felt inclined to write one as well. Mine may not be as fancy-written as yours, but I tried to make my point clear :X

http://sugar2sweet.blogspot.com/2009/07/female-programmers-interesting.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey there Clara. In response to the articles written by you and Cassie, I felt inclined to write one as well. Mine may not be as fancy-written as yours, but I tried to make my point clear :X</p>
<p><a href="http://sugar2sweet.blogspot.com/2009/07/female-programmers-interesting.html" rel="nofollow">http://sugar2sweet.blogspot.com/2009/07/female-programmers-interesting.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://clararaubertas.net/blog/why-are-there-so-few-female-programmers/#comment-1203</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 11:37:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clararaubertas.net/blog/?p=167#comment-1203</guid>
		<description>As an addendum, the degree to which saying anything like that - as obvious as it is to most people in hard sciences - is taboo for the public nowadays, is perhaps best illustrated by the mass hysteria caused by former Harvard's president' Larry Summers speech on the reasons for underrepresentation of females in tenured positions (which subsequently forced him to resign). Here, you may want to read it: 

http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=505844

His main points, if you think about them without prejudice, all make sense, and are clearly observable in practice. And his speech is actually rather cautiously formulated. I'd be a lot more straightforward - but then again, I'm not the Harvard president.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As an addendum, the degree to which saying anything like that - as obvious as it is to most people in hard sciences - is taboo for the public nowadays, is perhaps best illustrated by the mass hysteria caused by former Harvard&#8217;s president&#8217; Larry Summers speech on the reasons for underrepresentation of females in tenured positions (which subsequently forced him to resign). Here, you may want to read it: </p>
<p><a href="http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=505844" rel="nofollow">http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=505844</a></p>
<p>His main points, if you think about them without prejudice, all make sense, and are clearly observable in practice. And his speech is actually rather cautiously formulated. I&#8217;d be a lot more straightforward - but then again, I&#8217;m not the Harvard president.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://clararaubertas.net/blog/why-are-there-so-few-female-programmers/#comment-1202</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 10:58:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clararaubertas.net/blog/?p=167#comment-1202</guid>
		<description>Hehe, I figured :) just wanted to offer a diametrically different standpoint.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hehe, I figured :) just wanted to offer a diametrically different standpoint.</p>
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		<title>By: Clara</title>
		<link>http://clararaubertas.net/blog/why-are-there-so-few-female-programmers/#comment-1201</link>
		<dc:creator>Clara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Jun 2009 23:40:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clararaubertas.net/blog/?p=167#comment-1201</guid>
		<description>Mike -- as you can probably imagine, I disagree with pretty much everything you've said</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike &#8212; as you can probably imagine, I disagree with pretty much everything you&#8217;ve said</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://clararaubertas.net/blog/why-are-there-so-few-female-programmers/#comment-1200</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Jun 2009 16:17:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clararaubertas.net/blog/?p=167#comment-1200</guid>
		<description>That's probably one of the reasons for the lack of female programmers in general. However the more interesting question is the lack of good female programmers. I do not know even one, and I am a M.Sc. in CS/maths and have worked in some large companies and with many people. There were female programmers among them. But they were all - how should I put it - not very strong. They either lacked initiative and the ability to formulate and implement a solution for a complex problem by themselves, or the end result of their work was somehow flawed, or they just needed forever. It's not a bias, just an observation. I dont know why, but I am not familiar with even one good program written by a woman, or predominantly by women.

I think this has simply got to do with the fact that women on average aren't as good at solving formal, abstract, complex problems. I've seen evidence for this repeated for many years over and over again. It is less obvious at highschool level where problems are primitive and almost all of the population attends (so even the less capable males), and thus girls statistically are similar to boys, or perhaps even better. However, the picture drastically changes at university and post-university level. In hard sciences, there are very few capable women. VERY few. Similar with programming. On a simple level - basic HTML, web design, simple scripting, generally easy-to-grasp highlevel languages - women are still somewhat present. Not a majority, but present. However, if you go into pointer-heavy hardware-near C/C++, Perl, generics, or any other more cryptic and harder-to-comprehend things, women practically disappear. A female Perl or LISP hacker is practically an oxymoron. I've never even heard of one. 

IMO the only real explanation that fits that consistent picture is that women have more trouble with complex abstract concepts. Which is confirmed by personal experience as well - and not just my own. 

It's just a no-no to say in public.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s probably one of the reasons for the lack of female programmers in general. However the more interesting question is the lack of good female programmers. I do not know even one, and I am a M.Sc. in CS/maths and have worked in some large companies and with many people. There were female programmers among them. But they were all - how should I put it - not very strong. They either lacked initiative and the ability to formulate and implement a solution for a complex problem by themselves, or the end result of their work was somehow flawed, or they just needed forever. It&#8217;s not a bias, just an observation. I dont know why, but I am not familiar with even one good program written by a woman, or predominantly by women.</p>
<p>I think this has simply got to do with the fact that women on average aren&#8217;t as good at solving formal, abstract, complex problems. I&#8217;ve seen evidence for this repeated for many years over and over again. It is less obvious at highschool level where problems are primitive and almost all of the population attends (so even the less capable males), and thus girls statistically are similar to boys, or perhaps even better. However, the picture drastically changes at university and post-university level. In hard sciences, there are very few capable women. VERY few. Similar with programming. On a simple level - basic HTML, web design, simple scripting, generally easy-to-grasp highlevel languages - women are still somewhat present. Not a majority, but present. However, if you go into pointer-heavy hardware-near C/C++, Perl, generics, or any other more cryptic and harder-to-comprehend things, women practically disappear. A female Perl or LISP hacker is practically an oxymoron. I&#8217;ve never even heard of one. </p>
<p>IMO the only real explanation that fits that consistent picture is that women have more trouble with complex abstract concepts. Which is confirmed by personal experience as well - and not just my own. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s just a no-no to say in public.</p>
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		<title>By: clara</title>
		<link>http://clararaubertas.net/blog/why-are-there-so-few-female-programmers/#comment-625</link>
		<dc:creator>clara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 22:21:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://clararaubertas.net/blog/?p=167#comment-625</guid>
		<description>Elizabeth -- yeah, intro CS classes across the board really need to be retooled. And of course, having role models from the computing world who didn't like it is a push in the other direction as well.

Ethan -- wow, that's a really good point, yikes! I think most people who look for info on Wikipedia expect some degree of bias in the size of articles (like big, well-researched articles about pop culture stars vs. smaller, skimpier articles about important historical figures), but they probably aren't also taking into account that the articles' point of view is influenced by this gender imbalance (there are probably cultural and racial imbalances too -- the link you shared doesn't give country/race breakdowns for contributors but I would imagine it's disproportionately white Americans).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Elizabeth &#8212; yeah, intro CS classes across the board really need to be retooled. And of course, having role models from the computing world who didn&#8217;t like it is a push in the other direction as well.</p>
<p>Ethan &#8212; wow, that&#8217;s a really good point, yikes! I think most people who look for info on Wikipedia expect some degree of bias in the size of articles (like big, well-researched articles about pop culture stars vs. smaller, skimpier articles about important historical figures), but they probably aren&#8217;t also taking into account that the articles&#8217; point of view is influenced by this gender imbalance (there are probably cultural and racial imbalances too &#8212; the link you shared doesn&#8217;t give country/race breakdowns for contributors but I would imagine it&#8217;s disproportionately white Americans).</p>
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